Transcript episode 4

hey guys and welcome to the Carpentry Australia podcast
today I’m here with Nathan Woolams from Monumental Building Group
so I’ve been looking forward to this one today
because Nathan’s done some
some really great work with modern building design
working also with Build Skills
as a part of the Industry Advisory Committee
and yeah I think today will be a valuable insight into
and Nathan’s thoughts on where the industry is going

where the opportunities are and learning a bit about your history
so welcome Nathan hey
thank you very much for that
honestly it’s a
it’s great to be here and good to be able to catch up in Melbourne
my first time here so it’s pretty exciting mate
look I suppose a little bit about the business and the company
and where we sort of came from
so we’re about six and a half years in as a business you know
very passionate based

we try to instil that in the team and all of our apprentices you know
we’ve recently got our first female apprentice
which is great and trying to really
improve what’s going on in the industry as a whole
and yeah push the quality and just teach people you know
things aren’t always going to be price oriented
there is obviously gonna be a certain standard that we want to uphold
and we constantly
a big part for us is industry innovation is a massive thing
so we always want to be on the cutting edge
if there’s a better way to do it
let’s aim for that constantly push the envelope a little bit
to keep everyone else accountable
so we all lift up as a whole
as an industry so yeah
a little bit about us sort of came through
doing a lot of the cladding and external facade sort of things
small renovations and stuff like that
I did my certificate 4 at TAFE

got accredited for that took that over into the company and you know
just sort of ran with that for a little while
and then we got into a lot of their high end
outdoor entertaining space
I linked up with some legends like Eco Deck and Click Deck
and did a lot of that sort of things for a while
just trying to really I suppose again
improve the standard and change the stigma around composting
yeah compost decking as a whole
and how do you build an outdoor entertaining area to last 25 years

and even some more than 50 years
you know like how do you get it to that point
because it doesn’t just start with the board
it starts with the frame so we really fixated on that for a while
and yeah from there we obviously LED into some really really cool
projects of the time
we were lucky enough
to be heavily involved from our project
Management perspective
and the country perspective of the first
3D printed home in the southern hemisphere

which was uh spearheaded by Nick Holden
the team at Contour 3D
so shout out Nick absolute legend and the guys at Percy Flat
so John and Claire they were partner project together
and yeah
that was absolutely incredible to see where this industry could go
and what the future of building holds
I suppose a couple of questions
how do you think that the wider industry will they embrace it
so that’s number one excellent yeah

how does it go in terms of cost and time
yep and what are the pros and cons
yeah hundred percent excellent questions man really
I think that obviously there was a massive amount of exposure
news television social media surrounding that project
in particular there’s been a couple of the since
for the government housing and things like that
which has been great look
I think that you can take it one or two ways
I think at every point in time in carpentry and

and then further in building
there’s always been something that’s come out
and every old head
every person that does it a certain way has gone nah
this will never catch on yeah
I’m done this way forever
Nah no one will ever do this is nonsense
like look at carbon side frames to now pre fab frames
back in the day and like the first pre fab frame will come out Joe Bob
Bill everyone down at the pub and

that would have been like mate
this is nonsense what a bunch of Yahoo’s
no one’s ever gonna do a prefab house
it’s not real carpentry now look at it
it’s basically the industry standard
excluding you know
custom renovations and a select few carpentry crews across the country
now that really take it to that next level
I think personally
there’s never a bad time to look at alternative ways to build
and at the end of the day

there should be no insecurity in the industry
around people looking at alternatives
because without looking at alternatives
you’re never gonna find a better way and if anyone out there
any carpenter any builder
says the industry is perfect and that we need to change nothing
they’ve got no eyes because there is so much that we could do better
but we just don’t necessarily have all of the answers yet
so in my eyes
and I think people should try their best to take this concept

is there’s so much that we can improve on
try to not it as competition or as you know
taking jobs or taking work away from the trade
there is too much work
there is too high of a demand like you’ve said for housing
for infrastructure for development
trade rates are stereotypically in carpentry specifically
a bit too low and people are undercharging
under quoting
and they fear that this is then gonna cause that a problem

but I’ve never met a carpenter that is actually a 3d printer
you know what I mean
I’ve never met a bricklayer that is actually a 3d printer
and vice versa it’s not the same thing so
so you talk then we can answer a bit more about timelines and costing
so costing typically
obviously the target demographic
is to be cheaper due to a shorter amount of labour on site
and fixed cost materials that’s fine again
it’s a different build concept

a lot of it is fixated or pivots on it being an ideal scenario
so not every home
or every job site or every location will be suitable for this
it’s big machinery for the most part
it’s
A serviceability based on material access
and logistics of moving the machines
moving the materials there
everything like that stipulates a lot of alright
where is this gonna be a good solution
so if we needed 100 houses in a row

and they all needed to be identical and there’s no variations
no client no changes
it makes logically more sense to do the lower cost
faster option
where there’s not really any money to be made for a trainee anyway
in framing up cookie cutter homes where there’s zero margin
they want it done cheap
I don’t understand the logic behind carpenters grumbling that
they want that work anyway
you’re not gonna make any money

you’re not gonna get any return on all of your time and people say ah
but it’s work and I agree but at what cost
if people are gonna demand to pay less for scale
or multiple volume size projects
I say that’s a solution
and a market perfect suited to a lower cost 3D option
because at the end of the day
there’s always gonna be demand for quality building from carpenters
and if you’re doing quality carpentry
the demand is not going anywhere because again

it’s not a perfect shoe
you can’t put it on every scenario and it fits
it’s just got a market where there’s a demand for volume at low cost
and it’s always gonna be there
so it’s either they do something about it and they provide a solution
or we just go in circles and nothing changes
so can you tell me a bit more Nathan about
so the margin isn’t necessarily there in these
this style of home developing
yeah and then if we’ve got some carpenters

you think how am I gonna make money if I move into this direction
what’s your thoughts on that
so I suppose people sort of see it as a well
we were the carpenter on that project that was a very different build
yeah it wasn’t a standardized what they will be
this was a show home and display a this is how far you can take it
yeah build you know
we had four metre ceilings we had floor to ceiling Curved some way tall
we have imported shower screens from China
you know what I mean

like we were not building a cookie cutter government housing project
yeah we were building a masterpiece of
this is what you can do with a 3d architecturally designed home
but that is not their market that they’re trying to do day in day out
they’re not a building company
they’re a technology company that’s providing a building solution
so if you put it that way
that’s like people getting frustrated with Paslow
for upgrading the nail gun
it’s like they’re not coming to site and shooting the gun

they’re providing you a better tool to build a better finish yeah
it’s just a solution to a different problem
so I think that there’s always gonna be nice days
there’s always gonna be people that take it the wrong way
but my only advice would be to try to see it from an open mind of
there’s always gonna be a need for a different solution
and in my opinion like we’ve said
the margin’s not there in high velocity
small zero cost homes where there’s not the budget

so rather than people going bust
doing the work less than their cost price
and not making enough money to pay the bills
and cover their overheads
why not find a solution where not only does the project get built
trades don’t lose money building it and everyone wins
just have to then realize that in order
to make money and to do the right thing
people have to build to a high standard
which should be no issue for anyone in my opinion

I wanna sort of hone in on the project you did in New South Wales
yes so let’s say someone watching this has no idea
they’ve seen a couple of ads on Instagram
where there’s concrete building the walls
and that’s the extent of their understanding
yeah hundred percent
so again couple of questions
how did you come to get involved
and what were some of the things that surprised you and what you
some of the things you learnt that are different to the norm

hundred percent so great question again
so essentially I’m a bit of a relationships person
you know you’re a bit yeah
I love to chat I love getting to know people and
you know I sort of pride myself on having the same person to everyone
yeah so I can get along with people pretty easily
and the thing was I knew the builder pre existing to that project
he was a
he was a contact of mine that we’ve done work together in the past
and we’ve recently done some work at one of his own developments

he had a duplex that he was building
he said hey
Nate like he has a very high opinion about quality
which in my opinion rightfully so
but at the same time we learned so we
so we worked together in the past
we didn’t just walk in off the street and then yeah
we basically went to do a project for him
he was discussing with me oh
you know I’m the designing this at the moment with the clients

no one’s done one before we’re writing the codes
we’re figuring out all the problems
they’ve been working on this for over a year on the theory side
trying to figure out what works what doesn’t
and then there’s that much testing it’s gone into it in a factory
it’s not like we just rocked up and you know
they’re putting dingo bags in a concrete mixer and
hope it goes well like there’s so much science behind it
pretty much they were looking at

trying to find a carpentry contractor that’s multi skilled
and can take on any aspect of the job
and they needed someone that was willing to challenge themselves and
and do a project where there was not necessarily any set parameter of
this is what you do here this is what you do next
this is the next process call this person
you find out the step you have to troubleshoot
design and get things engineered to suit that build
that hadn’t been done before yeah
so that was where I was like mate

we can build anything you want no problem
I’d love to be involved and then we did the pricing
we had some chats talk to the clients and then bang
happy days we all
we all got together and it all worked out
and essentially
we were contracted to do the sub floor go for the first floor
so the ground floor to provide a bit of clarity
I suppose is essentially similar to a double skin cavity brick wall
so you have an external layer

a cavity and then an internal layer very similar to masonry
there’s no wall framing or anything like that
it’s just skin cavity skin
and that cavity can get bigger and smaller
with the contours of the wall
it’s subject to whatever you input into the machine
they then insulate all of those cavity areas
run their services etcetera for the ground floor do cut outs
everything similar process to standard and then we build on top
so we basically plate the top of that all to engineer specs

and then the floor system for the upstairs and it becomes
much of a conventional building
so there is obviously limitations again to the current technology
so height like these builds are 4 meters high for a ground floor
bloody tall that’s a ridge height for some houses and they were
they were doing that for a ground floor wall
so these buildings ended up
I think being eight and a half meters high to the ridge
step level site very difficult access
but they made it work

and to do it when no one’s done it on such a difficult site
on a main road in Woolooware
in the shire pretty crazy
pretty impressive
so we basically started there at the same time that we were printing
and it’s incredible to see like you just you see a bit of like on the
the internet or whatever in Europe
it’s done a lot in Europe in the States a bit
it’s taken off a bit more
there’s companies doing it internationally

but the quality in my opinion is far better here
because they’ve put so much work into the science of it all
and look at the end of the day
I think too that we we came into that project pretty open minded
knowing that it would be difficult and challenges
and all the rest of it and then we went from there
you know did did another system of you know
they call them this money age room like precast panels
or sip panels or in this case

it was a versatile wall system
which is another innovation where you gonna have either double OSB
a 90 mil phone like Styrofoam core and then an FC internal sheet
That’s all pre cut pre manufactured off site
so you have all your walls with the window openings
door headers everything already done rocks up
and then you put your plates in according to your set up
like you would any frame
then the walls were just clicking in just clicking together

like it was the most innovative build ever
and it’s incredible to see
there’s a lot of custom home guys out there
and if anyone wants to know
you’ll have to message me about it
cause off hand it’s just too much
but there’s a lot of custom home guys out there in Australia now
that are doing like precast panels of
you know sit with OSB and OSB
they’re taking a lot of inspiration from the US and from Europe
because in all honesty

they build a lot better than we do air tightness performance rating
moisture you know
water ingress through window openings and penetrations
there’s so much room to improve what we do here
and it’s not to say that we’re doing it intentionally
it’s just it that no one is perfect
building is not perfect and I just
I’m always hungry to improve
and I think that’s the best mindset you can take to it

Is just improve your practices within your business
don’t necessarily worry about what everyone else is doing
don’t get in the price race
don’t you know cut costs and understand your numbers
do your pricing really get a good software behind you
which we’ll talk about later
do a good software system where you can purely understand
what makes the lights turn on for your company
and then you’re pricing with confidence

not guessing not hoping you understand if I’m gonna do job a
it’s gonna take me X amount of hours for X amount of guys
my cost is why I know exactly if I’m going forwards or backwards
straight away you’re in control
you can negotiate that value of that job
and it’s difficult for people who are younger
and earlier into the industry to understand that
if you’re gonna lose on a contract
or lose on a job it’s better not to do that job
because you’re gonna go backwards anyway

and people say i
but I need work but i hear but you’re not making any money
you’re going backwards so if I said to you
do you wanna come work for me today for 12 hours and you pay me
yeah it would be too
you go what
I’m confused what’s the question
you know you go
I don’t understand makes no sense
but people are blatantly and unknowingly doing exactly that

and it’s just a lack of education
and look maybe a little bit of everyone wants to be their own boss
everyone thinks it’s lovely and so you know
sunshine and rainbows but the truth is that if you spend one
two three years going backwards
it’s very pointless to do it
so I think there’s a lot around that side of the education
where we can work on our own industry first
before we worry about what everyone else is doing
or what other innovations are coming

so yeah that project realistically
something that I think
is gonna be the future of some aspects of building
not every but some
and that there needs to be patience around the carpentry
side of it 100% because for instance
they they’ve done another project where it was a 3d printed house
and it was a conventional truss roof
and the printer’s not gonna put the truss roof up
you know what I mean so we’re not necessarily closing the door yeah

there’s still gonna be internal works
there’s still gonna be Jet Rocking
there’s still gonna be landscaping concrete driveways
etcetera done there’s still work to be done
trades that fixate on where they’re not getting work
instead of worrying about OK
well where can I get work
what are my avenues of leads or what do I wanna specialise in
what am I good at you know what are my rates
I think fix your own sort of business

and then everything else will
will happen because at the end of the day
it’s gonna come whether we want it to or not
we may as well just be supportive of the fact that they’re trying to
Solve a problem that is within our industry
and hopefully it will lead to
you know more houses going up more building more development
which is better for every other trade
and all of us to benefit from in the end realistically
so that’s my thoughts anyway yeah

so we spoke a little bit earlier about some of the
the pros and cons
looking at the way that we’re headed with 3D and modular all those
sort of things so can you talk us through some
of the differences between the conventional building
in terms of timing and talk us through like what was the
the full scope of that building and how long did it take
yeah and what were some of the things that surprised you most
print time of the ground floor from a 3D aspect

I believe from memory was about 17 days
and that’s a duplex yeah
3.9 or 4 meters high slope blocks
a split level all all internal and external double skin walls
so it works out eight and a half days each at that height
with no scaffolding needed
no manual labour automated with guys on site
obviously feeding the material
how many people on site with operating in
so it’s typically they can do it with two to three people

yeah OK
which is very minimal yeah
and then
in terms of modular aspect
for instance with the first
first floors we did all the external internal walls
which is framing insulation and sheeting takes about 12 hours a
a house that’s 120 square meter space internal and external walls
three to four bedrooms and that’s all like I said
your external OSB bracing

your framework your full insulation of internal and external
and your internal wall linings done
ready for rough in pre roof finish
yeah so it’s very quick modular in my opinion
there’s a lot of things that are incredible about it
and it could be really really good for the industry
just at this point in time
I don’t know if the demand is there or the client awareness
and it’s also about having builders that are willing to
learn that aspect and learn that sort of things

so in my opinion if
if people are keen and they
they wanna do it
there’s still so much education online
we have so much on the internet these days
that you can readily access and learn about
because the timelines are quicker
but it’s then about educating the other trades
educating your electrician how to rough in and what cables to use is
You know the difficulties
or challenges that come with working with a modular

pre insulated panel cause you got no cavity
so you’ve got to work around that
you’ve got plumbing services that you’ve got to plan for
and think about ahead of time
internal wall studs for mounting is typically
you know you put
either studs and blockings in for a wall mount vanity TV
you’ve got to think of that ahead of time
and you’ve got to have that pre incorporated into that panel
so there is a lot of education around these building practices

that I think people need to
you know put a bit of time into first
and then they can make an educated decision
I’m interested in maybe doing a bit of that
but me myself I’m always interested to do something new
because I find the challenge invigorating
I find it exciting
and I think personally that it’s the best way to grow
yeah you may not love all of it
you might that’s the best about every single aspect

yeah every carpenter and every triphies
got things that they don’t enjoy doing that job
yeah and
and that’s what leads to this sort of modern day carpentry now
is everyone’s specialized person
so you’ve got a guy that only does fix up
you got a guy that only does pre fab frames
you got a guy that only does cladding and facades
you got a guy that only does decks
and then you’ve got guys that only do fire doors

I only do one facet and there’s nothing wrong with it
I don’t object to it because there is like a
a easier aspect of the lifestyle specialsing
and there’s so much volume these days
that there’s sort of a need for it
but it does make it difficult on the apprentices
I find of like the younger people in the trade to learn properly
if they’re not under
someone who can actually skill them in a wider variety of things
so you I have apprentices that have come from pure framing backgrounds

they’re great they’ve got all the all the basics down pat
but there’s you know they might be second or third year in
and they don’t know how to do anything outside of that
yeah limited
and then they need that education over the
next year and a half or two years of their trade
to really be able to call themselves a carpenter as a whole
and I know guys who are mates of mine
who have only done pre start training for 12 years

since our first year I’ve never done anything else
that’s it and that’s all I’ll do probably till I retire
which is fine but it’s like
you have to be willing to understand that if you’re a young person
or an apprentice or you’re thinking about doing an apprenticeship
those four years are critical to your development as a chippy
or as an aspiring builder down the line
all that sort of thing it’s critical that you understand that
what you learn in that time will often determine what your options

are later cause
yeah can be quite disappointing for people
when they’re a tradesperson or subcontractor
and they can’t actually get the work
or they can’t get an opportunity
because they don’t have the skill set
so you believe that
it’s up to each of us as individuals to be open to change and growth
because with growth of your expertise comes opportunity
hundred percent 110%

I couldn’t agree more with all of that
I think diversification multi skilled
it comes back to the build skills stuff too
like that we’re talking about at the moment in the background about
you know the course pathway and should it be multi skilled
should it be single skilled
should it all be segregated
or should we continue rolling more things into it
and my current outlook on all of that sort of thing
with the training curriculum and stuff

was that it’s at a point now
where it’s almost hard enough to get young apprentices
and things like that to learn such a wide set of skills
if they work in a uni skilled company
like they get a week or two weeks training on
different facets of carpentry
but they spend three and a/2 four years doing 1 it’s bit of a
it’s easy to be critical of the industry
but that’s what I say
I just sort of worry about what we do within our company

and our business which is everything
we do our best to train people in every aspect
all the way through the roofing and
you know insulate bag goals and
and outer and toniars of new products and new systems
because we like the challenge and growth comes from the uncomfortable
so if you’re not in your comfort zone and you’re challenging yourself
that’s when you’re really gonna grow
that’s when you develop as a tradesman
as a as a carpenter as a builder as any trades person

that’s when you’re gonna really find out okay
I can do that
I’m capable of that and then you make your educated decision
I don’t enjoy it
so I might not do it or I don’t mind it if the opportunity comes up
I’ll do it so then that’s when you’re educated
and you’re making those decisions based off actual experience
not of guesswork so big thing I’m curious
Nathan about your view
cause you’ve touched on this before

about why some carpenters in the content she gave was
would I work for you for a day and pay you
it’s a good insight because sometimes if I feel like I’m busy
I’m working I’m building my reputation
but I’m not making any money
and there’s a lot of carpenters out there
like our mission is to support every carpenter in the country
to help them stay in the game yeah
now there’s a lot of people who maybe they weren’t academics at school
maybe their their learning style

they got distracted easy but when they had their hands on the tools
they loved what they did so they found their passion
but then they get so far on their journey and they
they just can’t stay in the game
so the question is
what do you think is the reason why so many people drop out
and what would your advice be for somebody like
you’re talking about sort of technology and all these things
and it just scares the heck out of me yeah

I go I can’t even use a bloody computer yeah
drawing it right back to that early stage yeah
someone who loves yeah
they wanna do good they’ve got their hearts in the right place
what would be some of the initial things
that would help encourage them to
to stay on the course and and make some minor changes for the better
I think something that a lot of people sort of
I don’t think is out there
is that there is a lot of companies out there that are really good

to learn within and really vast with what they do
they’re out there there are heaps of them and at the end of the day
I think the big thing is everyone in some way
shape or form
they they wanna race out on their own and when it doesn’t work out
they blame the industry but the truth is yeah
the truth is that working for yourself is extremely challenging
even if you really have a good run with it
it’s never easy it’s not like you know
smooth sailing with a beautiful work life balance

it’s challenging
and I think that some people need to be honest with themselves
and reflect on what’s important to them
first and foremost
cause there’s absolutely nothing wrong with working within a team
or being a leading hand
or being someone’s great tradesman or a gun apprentice
absolutely nothing wrong with it
it’s it’s a great shoe for some people
and I think a lot of people think about

I wanna be in charge or I’m like and jobs
and the truth is that if you’re not willing to sacrifice a lot
personally
that’s often not possible and they just think you can’t have it all
sadly so
I think that one thing that we can do
is provide better access to systems and software
that make it a lot more streamlined
and a lot more simplistic
for the everyday subcontractor or the everyday company

or carpentry team
to look after their back end or their background stuff
within the business that’s critical cause a lot of guys you know
they they sign up for something that they think is everything
that they need but then there’s
five or six things that they have no idea how to manage
if that’s the case you probably don’t have
the software or the systems in place that you actually need
you have the bare minimum

which is probably invoices and quotes
and you probably don’t even quote if you’re in that boat
so you’re just sending invoices
and then all of the rest of this stuff falls to the cracks
job management scheduling quite database inquiry and lead uh tracking
so where’s this person up to
what did I need to do next for that lead
have I quoted them have I scheduled them for an appointment
it is a business at the end of the day
like you ring your let’s see like you ring your GP

hey mate I need to come and see you you know
I’ve got a sore head no worries mate
yep I’ll book you in for 9:00am on Tuesday the seventeenth alright
you rock up at 9:00am on Tuesday the 17th you go in the
he’s got my shirt on and he’s working on someone else
and it’s all frantic and it’s a mess
You know hey mate you booked me for 9:00am on the 7th sorry mate
I didn’t even write that down anyway
To put on the stick timber and then I shoved it in the wall

you know I’m really sorry mate can you come back in a week
yeah
my hands been sore for a week already
I’ve waited a week to see it hurry man
I didn’t write it down yeah
you wanna go to that GP and you say this guy’s a madman yeah
We’re not going to him no
why do people expect their trade business to run any better
if they have no system and no process to look after their potential
or their actual client it’s just it’s just madness

so big one from what you said there is
which stands out to me
makes a lot of sense is there’s this illusion that oh
not necessarily illusion
but this belief that if I run my own business
there’s a sense of pride in that
but you made a comment to say a lot of sacrifice
what do you mean by sacrifice
well to be honest
a lot of the time

you’re not gonna be able to pick and choose what days you wanna
work and what times suit you and when
when it’s a good time to take a phone call
and when it’s a good time to visit to a job
that has to get done in order to get a final progress pay
because at the end of the day
being the owner or the business operator or the director
it means that you are the person that is at the end of the road
so payment if it needs you know
something to be completed to get that final progress payment

it’s up to you to either delegate
or go out of your way to make sure that that happens
so that your clients happy and you’ve delivered on what you promised
you know if you have a meeting that you have to get to
in order to attend your job
and they only are available on a Saturday at 9:30am
And that’s an hour and a half away
if you don’t go to that meeting you potentially don’t have work
you won’t be paid on Monday

you won’t have a job start
you won’t know what materials you need
you haven’t measured the site what are you gonna do
you have to go to that meetings then that’s you know I’m sorry
can’t make it that day whatever it is the case may be
I think there’s a a little bit not glorification
but there’s a little bit of a false sense of reward around
how easy or difficult it
may be to run a business
and that there’s a bad stigma around working for someone

I think there’s just working for the wrong person is the issue
because like I like to think that my team
so we have a team of six including myself
we’re leading him a fourth year
a tradesman a third year and a second year
so we have a quite a decent size team
and I like to think that they all go to work very happy every day
and they go home very happy every day
you know I’m very transparent
I’m very fair
and we try to make it a place where people

want to come to work
you know they pay on time they get incentivized to work well
they get paid for their travel time
you know
I buy the trucks and provide the fuel and all this sort of thing
like it’s
it’s a very fair relationship because I’m expecting your time
but you need to be rewarded for that yeah
and if you have an issue I always say if you have an issue come to me
we can discuss it and like I’d rather we talk it through

we come to a solution if you need something
let’s talk about it it’s a bit of an open door sort of policy
and I feel like nowadays
it’s a lot of companies that are just do it my way or else not
it’s not happening at all
and it’s like it’s OK to say
you know I wanna go somewhere else
I think I wanna learn a different way or I wanna learn a new thing
there’s nothing wrong with that
especially if you’re an apprentice

because I think that’s your critical time
to be in the best environment
under the best people to learn
Because the harsh truth is that I think they should be telling people
in Tate or in on site training
whatever you may do is that after that 4 years
a lot of guys sadly don’t expect to pay you to learn
expect to pay you to do a job to a really high standard
with little to no support
that’s the expectation

and a lot of guys sort of finish that fourth year and they don’t really know what’s going on and it frustrates it’s scary and it’s intimidating
and I think that there’s a lot of a lack of preparation for people
so for instance when our guys go into their fourth year
they’re still time on site to do
I speak with them and I say look
this year is more about your growth as a person
to transition into being in charge of a job
into having some responsibility

and maybe training that second year in a couple of different tasks
I’m not saying I’m off to Hawaii for 6 months
good luck I’m just saying that I think this year is less about me
spoon feeding you and more about me
letting you show capability is are you
you know wanting to run jobs or are you wanting to be a team member
do you wanna train staff or do you just wanna go to work everyday
and then I can facilitate your skill set to what the business needs
and we can be upfront and transparent

whereas a lot of people they get treated the same from first to fourth
they’re just a helper there are set of hands and do this
do that do this
do that do this
do that for the whole four years
it’s never what do you think we should do
how would you fix this problem
what’s the next step there’s no training
it’s just work for money work for money
work for money and then that’s it

so it puts me in a bit of a tough spot and it
I don’t necessarily have a solution
I don’t have a here it is here
but at the end of the day
I think it’s something that needs to be talked about
in order to bring awareness to the fact that
apprentices that are out there
in a situation where maybe they don’t know if
is this what the trade is
they can start to think amongst themselves
or talk amongst others and say

you know I think I can probably learn more somewhere else
a little bit
over doing the same thing every day for the past 18 months
there is no better
time than in that apprenticeship to look for a change
I had five different employers in my apprenticeship
and it was over three years
you know what I mean that was a lot of changes but I Learned so much
I had to adapt so quickly

I had to become a useful asset in five different teams
in a very short period of time
and develop those relationships
and at the end of the day
it opened my eyes to many of different things in the industry
I had a renovations boss who was a fully licensed builder
and we did everything from start through to finish
and then I had a cladding eaves boss with what only did facades
then I had a frames boss we

only did frames
and then I had a boss that did clad facade and fix up
we only did that point was
I got exposed to a lot in that early period of my trade where I never
I felt out of my depth
when I turned up to a job when I was out on my own
I thought what’s going on here
I was like I know what’s going on here
I’ve been here before this is what’s happening
this is the process and I’m comfortable and at the end of the day

four years is a long time but there’s a lot to learn
what’s your thoughts on conflict in the industry
I think that a lot of that comes back to again
it all starts with a bit of education around
what is running a business actually mean
and how do I set it up
where I don’t have issues that I’m not prepared for
so there’s a saying that prevention’s always better than the cure
so don’t cure the problem
prevent it yeah so

if you’re doing work of any value
that you wouldn’t want to lose that money
you should have in place something in writing
whether it be simple for entry level people in your quotes
or whether you consult a lawyer and get a small
simple contract put together
there are industry ones available for free
but they won’t be tailored to suit your business
so do you think that there’s something specific about you
that you’re a pretty particular business

or you need something tailored
the way I can ask this question a lot actually
the way I put it is how many times would you want to lose $10,000
probably none right how many times would you want to lose $20,000
probably none
so why are you gonna wait for it to happen to do something about it
it’s the best way I can put it is
if you’re feeling like you’re engaging contracts
doing work of an amount of money that you don’t wanna lose

put the necessary legal steps in place and in writing for every job
so that you don’t have a fear that
what if they decide not to pay
what am I gonna do
because you need to have that set out again to be a proper
professional efficient business
and that’s the best advice I give to people of any trade
and if somebody’s conflict averse
like not in terms of somebody not paying you
but quite often things are changing now

you mention you have a female apprentice now
and there’s a bit of a shift in terms of conduct yeah
and what’s appropriate what’s not
but sometimes you encounter people who are a bit rough on the edges
and a bit aggressive yes
what are your thoughts on that
look I think you just have to have a very clear standpoint and
and call it out straight away
you can’t let it happen
you can’t overlook it can’t say I’ll let it decline decline

I can’t say anything you have to stand up for your team yourself
whatever the scenario is and as soon as something
or an altercation or a disagreement
or something that’s not right is said
or brought up
you have to straight away be onto that address it call it out and say
listen you can’t speak like that or you can’t say that or
or we don’t say those sorts of things
you know yeah
respect the team

or else we’re gonna stop doing the work and we’ll be gone
we’ll leave straight away
you need to be willing to withdraw yourself from any situation
cause especially if you’re running
I suppose a company or a business that has multiple employees
their well being mental health
and sort of
workspace is more important than the financial aspect of it
of one hour or one day or two hours
Very great point

because that’s the sacrifice you make when you employ people
is you gotta put them first
yeah because at the end of the day
they give you 110% you should do the same for them
so that’s pretty much my input on that beautiful
alright so Nathan
any form of things you’d like to share or raise
no not too much but I really
I’m just excited
excited for what the future holds for the industry

and really getting connected with more of you guys
and hopefully yeah
we can we can continue this stream
and have a little bit more to chat about in the near future
when we do a few more exciting things
but yeah now I’m really
really keen to see what the rest of this year brings
we’re only halfway there’s so much to go
and yeah mate
2026 is gonna be even crazier
so can’t wait thank you sir
thank you mate it’s a pleasure